I’m a huge fan of the Huberman Lab podcast (I’ve written about it before). But sometimes he gets so reductive I need to go do even more slow, mindful yoga before I can go back to listening to his marathon 3 hours sessions. But, I mean, what do I expect here – he’s a scientist, so he’s gonna talk about science – and he does an amazing job. But science does not always explain the phenomena of existence, and the reductionism is at times head-bangingly frustrating.
After listening to a recent podcast called “How to Breathe Correctly for Optimal Health, Mood, Learning, and Performance” my inner keyboard warrior couldn’t keep her mouth shut. (if you wanna listen to what got my yoga tights twisted, start around the 1 hour and 10 minute mark).
So I wrote a comment. LMK what you think – and if you’d like to get his attention – feel free to leave a comment (about my comment) on his YouTube channel. Thanks!
I guess other people find him frustrating at times too.
“Dr. Huberman I’d love to talk to you about this [breathing] as a yoga therapist and armchair neuroscience geek who has spent more than a decade curating the research.
I love your work and I realize scientific inquiry is by its very nature reductive.
But you have taken an intricate and sophisticated ancient system that confers self-regulation – ethics + asana + pranayama + meditation – and reduced it to “box breathing” here.
This is deeply problematic for a number of reasons.
Self-regulation via yoga practices is basically achieved in four steps:
- Operationalizing ethics is the first step towards co- and self-regulation – and the yoga system offers some deep wisdom about this as well as principles and practices.
- Yoga postures/asanas – have their own intrinsic value and their own mechanisms for self-regulation which go beyond the benefits of “stretching”. For our purposes here, in the context of this video, they prepare the respiratory structures via movement enhanced by specific breathing techniques and myofascial optimization for pranayama. But they are entirely overlooked in your discussion here and in most of the “breath work” literature.
Which is a crying shame IMHO because they are essential for creating an optimal state of body and mind in order to access the breath and its potential for self-regulation via pranayama.
- Pranayama is the third practice. “Box breathing” as you call it, is a tragically oversimplified form of what we call ratio breathing in the yoga tradition. Good yoga teachers advise that ratios are approached with caution. Equal ratios are not the only way that we work with ratios – and certainly not optimal for every nervous system. We can mildly stimulate the SNS but remain within the Window of Tolerance (Siegel, 1999) when we manipulate the ratios in specific ways – far too complex to explain in a YouTube comment BTW – it’s a whole course of study. Suffice it to say that both the inhale and the antara kumbhaka or pause after the inhale can have a mildly stimulating effect and promote concentration, focus, norephinephrine etc. Then you can downreg the SNS with the exhale and the pause after the exhale bhaya kumbhaka (as well as messing around subtly with the pause after the inhale) by manipulating the ratios.
But ratios need to be accessed gradually.
I would never recommend an 8-8-8-8 ratio (regardless of CO2 discard rate) without getting someone there gradually, intentionally, and with nuance. The problem is that you may not know the condition of their heart. And you don’t know what ratios might do to someone unless you proceed slowly and get feedback.
There are time tested guidelines for pranayama developed perhaps over thousands of years. It’s an art and science that deserves much greater attention than a simple recommendation of “box breathing.” It kinda breaks my heart TBH to see it taught this way.
Pranayama is seen as the stepping stone to meditation and the preparatory practice. It is meant to be more self-regulating than meditaiton. Because the point of meditation is not self-regulation. It’s expansion of mind – perhaps beyond the realms of scientific inquiry.
- Meditation – So yes, you got better data for self-reg with pranayama, because it is the practice that prepares the mind for meditation. It’s supposed to work that way! Any serious meditator knows that pranayama calms the mind so that meditation becomes deeper.
Any time you yank a component out of a system and research it, you are rendering the component, as well as the system less potent (think about the blueberry research).
These are 4 process tools that underlie the self-regulatory mechanisms of yoga. All of them should be considered in future studies, and please consider having a serious yoga professional consult.
Thank you for the work you are doing.”
If you would like to listen to the podcast, the link is in the comments. Feel free to comment on my comment over on YouTube because that might get someone’s attention at the Huberman lab!
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Brava! Your response to Dr. Huberman is excellent!
I’d like to elaborate more but I’m not sure I have the vocabulary to express my thoughts in writing. So I will suffice with a simple, heartfelt, good job!
Thank you so much.
You ROCK! Clear, thorough, and well-informed response.
Glad you took the time to explain. Looks like everyone eats his stuff up. Well done. I would like to comment over there to get more attn to your comment, but not sure how to link?
Wonderful response and well written…Kristine I am so grateful and proud to be a member of the Subtle Yoga Resilience Society.
A very clear and deeply wise response, Kristine, and what I suspect many in the long-time practitioners of healthy living WISHED they had said! Well done (and I DO find his incredibly well-prepped lectures mesmerizing).
Thanks Gary!
What is an IMHO? It sounds self-depreciating, but don’t know where that fits into the context. (I’m a ho…?)
What’s TBH?
It would be helpful if you could spell it out.
Another one, LMK????
Is SNS Sympathetic Nervous System? Just guessing, Why no reference to PNS? Parasympathetic Nervous System?
Nice piece! Funny thing: I just saw his YouTube on perspective. Seems he could take a lesson from that and from yours as well.
note: my mid-40s brain tells me IMHO stands for,’in my humble opinion’. I may be wrong–best to consult with a person in their 20’s,lol
Nice Piece!
Funny thing: I just watched his YouTube on perspective. Seems he could use a bit more and take a page out of the great Subtle Yoga library.
note: my mid 40s brain says IMHO stands for ‘in my humble opinion’. Might wanna double check with a 20yr old, LOL
Thanks Anna. And thank you for deciphering my 20 year-old speak LOL!
I get a bit bloggy with my blogs. Sorry for any confusion.
IMHO = in my humble opinion
TBH = to be honest
LMK = let me know
JAG, you’re correct about the SNS abbreviation.
Kristen, I don’t follow this podcast & have not listened to the section you refer to here. But you’re explanation of the 8 limbs, the purpose and the body-mind-nervous system responses to pranayama is so concise & clear. Beyond the reductionist perspective, I have problems with “box breath.” The western name for Sama vritti pranayama presents a restrictive image – why would I want to put my breath in a box? (Yes, I get it as a description, but….). And, as you point out, ratios can be harmful if there are underlying health conditions. Strict adherence to ratios can also lead to constriction of the breath as one may bring more attention to the count than the function of the lungs and organic awareness of the process.
Thanks Kate, I appreciate the translation. It was a comment…so it was…comment-y. I guess.
thank you for your response, and I agree with everything that you wrote here about the potential harm of “box” breathing!
Excellent response. Thank you for your perspective.
Thanks Julie!
You are very brave! I hope that he has the humility to really take in your comments. And may be have you on his podcast!
awwww. That means a lot coming from you my friend. xoxo
Bravo is right! I, too, love Huberman podcast. I didn’t catch this particular one… but I will. I wish he would invite YOU as a guest on his show. One thing I like about Dr. H is that you can tell he learns so much from his guests!!!
As usual – fabulous! Can’t wait to see you on Dr H’s podcast! Perhaps, you could also demonstrate, to and with him, the benefits of a consistent sustained practice – the experience of said breathing techniques 😉
Such a great reply. I’d love to introduce you to some incredible information that can have a HUGE impact on fight or flight responses and get you to a rest and digest (recovery) mode.
I guess my response to that would be – do you have any idea what I do? and have been doing for almost 30 years? It’s kinda surprising to have spammy comments on my blog, but I guess I should be flattered?? IDK. yeesh.
I love how you articulated this. My husband is a huge fan of Huberman, always sending me new episodes to listen to. I am often intrigued by his topics and point of view, yet there has always been a lingering feeling of discomfort when I listen. His opinions, although based on science, often feel elitist to me, and disregard the context in which many people live – essentially being too reductionist, as you pointed out. In any case, I love the way you articulated your point and, hopefully, gave him pause.
Thanks Kristin. I like Huberman in general, but I’d also like to have a chance to chat with him and perhaps change his take on a few yoga related topics!